There has been much buzz about Indexable IDX plug-ins for real estate blogsites… First things first…Why is this a big deal to begin with? IDX solutions are typically framed in to web/blogsites and offer little to no SEO value. An indexable IDX effectively creates separate posts for every listing, thus creating GOBS of real estate and general property related content that the Search Engines can’t help but crawl all over and index. In theory, indexable IDX’s should subsequently send copious relevant organic traffic to a site that has implemented such a plug-in. As far as I can tell Jason Benesch from The Real Estate Tomato pioneered an open source WordPress plug-in (ListingPress) that spurred further development by a handful of other tech vendors that I also highly respect, like Diverse SolutionsdsIDXpress (Press Release). The idea seems great in theory…as said, plug it in and instantly create a ton of crawlable property data for your real estate web/blogsite. If you are first in your market with one of these churning inside your site, there would appear to be a distinct SEM advantage. So, I was having a conversation with some Housechick and this subject of Indexable IDX’s came up. Being she knows a thing or three about IDX’s and SEM, the obvious question was thrown out: ‘What happens when multiple people/sites in the same market implement such a tool?’ Kelley and I speculated for a bit with no real conclusions, just educated guesses…so I called Google and am still on hold. While I’m waiting, I ask the rest of the community: As adoption of indexable IDX’s reaches a certain saturation point by market, does the current innate SEO value diminish, evaporate, or worse? Thoughts?
Originally posted on TheXBroker 1/26/10
Great question. Not one I've ever pondered before. I'll come back later to see what others say.
My two cents is that indexing an IDX site/page would not be good. I would prefer my home page or some page with lots of my info would be indexed and they in turn would find my idx link. If we have google putting our idx links in their database they will have lots of old info that may or may not exist anymore. Just like when you search on some agents you did business with several years ago and their name and info comes up in Google but yet they haven't been in that particular office for a year or more. Does Google ever purge?
Huh??? Oh my gosh...I wish I could understand just one sentence of what you blogged. I am so clueless on this whole thing.
Jeff: I am pretty much in the same boat as Claire in comment # 3. Most of what your post talks about is way above my head. BUT... I clicked on the Housechick's link... and like her post, and her blog... soooo... thanks a bunch !
Jeff: HELP! Although much of this stuff is too techie for me... I have been clicking on the links you provided in your post. First, as I said above, I went to the Housechick blog. Then I clicked on Jason Benesch, and looked at his Wordpress blog.
Question... how difficult is it to learn how to blog on the Wordpress format that Jason's blog showns pictured in the link ? In blogging... I usually don't have much trouble writing my posts... and often get scads of comments. I would really like to make the jump to a stand-alone outside blog... and perhaps this Wordpress format that Jason is using might be the way to go ?
Any thoughts ? I would appreciate your opinion... cuz it's obvious you really know your stuff. I really like the "crisp-ness" and the simplicity of Jason's page. Great "ease of readability"... if that makes sense.
This is a GREAT discussion to have. (Comment 2, Google doesn't put them out, they (probably) index what agents put out via the plugin(s) that Jeff mentions.)
The saturation issue is real interesting to me as is the page rank etc. Heck, I would love to talk with Kelley to chew on it some more.
A few of us here in PHX have been talking about this topic while watching sites do very well with the beta tests.
I do intend on trying it out but would hate to be slapped by GOOG for the duplicate content etc.
I have a feeling that page rank and site strength will be rewarded but I am surely no "expert." There will be others joining in very soon so the fact that DS is no longer going to be the "only game in town" might be good?
The saturation may not be as big a problem either as the services are going to cost money which may keep some away.
Thanks for the discussion, I hope there will be some more really good info here soon.
If you have any great tips or inside info, feel free to call and help a brother out. :-)
Hey Karen-
WordPress is a wonderful blogging/website platform, probably the most popular on the planet. The functionality aspects that are available are almost infinite, you can mold WP sites to look like and do almost anything. However, since it is what's called an 'open source' platform (read: Do It Yourself or with seriously qualified help) it does come with a pretty significant learning curve compared to the simplistically beautiful platform (both inter-network and 'Outside Blogs') that AR provides.
@Nick- It will be very interesting to see how it all plays out as this form of listing re-syndication permeates the landscape...
Jeff, Thanks for the post! I am a little behind the times here. I have been looking for a new IDX and I am having a tough time deciding because I want it to be used with my WP blogs. I am now reading all that you have posted here. Very valuable links.
I have no idea what Google will do with all of the IDX indexed data I just know I want it! Of course not being any type of expert on this I am just going to follow the conversation. I guess it all depends on how the download of MLS data is used when it comes to the duplicate content issue. Ok, off to read more of the referenced links.
Jeff,
That's a great question. Many are still trying to understand how Localism works & what is a long tail keyphrase... Interesting to see what some of the so called "seo" studs around here have to say. Cool question.
I launched a site for a friend that used the LP plugin. I had 8 different results pages and 8 different details page. Google indexed 2,100 pages within 30 days. I thought this was in 3 months but it was actually a lot faster.) Better, I think I know why those pages designs were indexed and why the other page styles were not. Best, they were in either the #1 or #2 spot on Google, crushing Realtor.com, Zillow, etc...
This made me very happy.
I was curious about duplicate content so I analyzed the pages of all major competitors - after all, we all did have the same listing content and they were "authority" websites. Why were we crushing them? What was the difference?
That was easy to discover.
Our next step was to create a plugin that would take a keyword, for example "homes" and optimize the entire internal structure of the site automatically for SEO - think all tags, descriptions, internal linking, etc...optimizing for the name of the town + homes and boosting the value of similar pages.
Ok, that's as much as I'm giving away : ) except to say that we also have a way of adding non-duplicate keyword rich content that changes whenever the spiders visit. (This is especially important when we put up different sites in the same market.)
My partners and I are debating whether to enter the IDX playing field, or just keep our secrets for our own partners to dominate individual markets by optimizing a number of sites this way (yes, yes, on different server farms w/different ip addresses) and monopolizing the PPC space by running ads to those sites as well (all owned of course by different corporations with different credit cards, etc...)
The hilarious thing is that I'm not an SEO professional at all. I just read what a lot of people have said about "best practices" and then just tested the effects of each strategy as much as I could, and then used the wordpress plugin structure to do each one automatically but with flexibility to allow more testing and the use of different strategies by different agents. (I was really tired of SEO guys I knew 'speculating' with no data to back what they said up.)
Oh, @ United Realty of Texas, you want as many pages as possible indexed not only for visitors but because they can all link to your home page or other page you may want to optimize. When the listing "expires" but if it's still indexed by google, it's pretty easy to have a click to that page automatically redirect the visitor to another one. The secret here though is to first try and get the "Results" pages indexed. When this kind of page is indexed, the link will usually define a specific set of property criteria, so even when some listings disappear, new ones take their place. If the other SEO factors are in place, I think Google likes new content above all else.
Whoops. I shut up now.
Cheers!
Hi Jeff! With relation to the power being in the numbers, how would indexable IDXs be any different than ActiveRain members' ability to collectively rank so much higher than my basic WordPress blog? ActiveWeb, who does our firm's website, touts that we're all (agents within the firm who have our own 'rebrandable' website) working together to pull one another to the top of the indexing. How is this different from the indexable IDXs?
Staying tuned for the outcome! This is always a fascinating subject for me and it seems as though the rules just keep changing on us--or maybe I'm just getting more confused! LOL
Jeff. Please keep us posted. This is very interesting indeed. Inquiring minds want to know :)
Good stuff. I know my idx is being indexed by the main search engines. It's a really big hit on your server when Google comes to visit a few thousand pages. I would suggest that unless you understand all of this post you wait and let the dust settle. We're at the step beyond the leading edge; the bleeding edge.
On the other hand, if you're thinging of a straigh WordPress blog, they're great. There is a learning curve, but after that, you rule your own world.
Wow. There is a lot to take in here. I'll try to keep up!
Interesting post. I just learned a lot about indexable IDX, I am curious about the duplication issue also.
Jeff,
Only Google knows and I'm sure they're not telling. It's always been a given in SEO circles that duplicate content has a negative effect on SERP. Very interesting question.
Rich
My theory is that the indexing works best when only a few in a given market are doing it. I would think google would choose the site with the highest page rank just like they do with everything else.
Very different concept. I will be watch for how Google responds to this.
Very interesting post. I'm by the time it all gets figured out Google will change the rules again
Jeff,
This is a very interesting question. I'm not entirely sure I followed the issues. But, I will come back here to see if the answer gets posted.
Thanks for posting the inquiry.
Brian
I've been beta testing the Diverse Soultions IDX plugin on my blog for several weeks.
Google results are stunning.
It remains to be seen what the impact will be as more people utilize it.
It's not free, and that will keep many (most?) away.
Time will tell...
I wrote about my beta testing experience on Geek Estate, and will have another post up sometime today.
I have to admit that this is like crack for me. I get so distracted that I almost forget that I am a broker and not a programmer when I start thinking like this. This kind of insight is helpful as I am my own webmaster to this point using WordPress.
Karen (#4 and 5)- It's not as hard as you might think. Basic maintenance over your posts and content can be easily learned but any of the design elements and programming oddities can be pretty difficult like Jeff mentions. I suggest you find a programmer who works independently who is willing to help you on maybe an hourly basis.
I wrote about my website here: http://activerain.com/blogsview/1446834/using-wordpress-for-a-real-estate-website and I am interested in meeting a few others that use WordPress for blogging and static sites. My hope is that a few of us could share some ideas and experience without giving away trade secrets!
Let me know if anyone is interested.
I can haz cool IDX RSS SEO on my Tomato blog? Yes.
"some" housechick? LMAO.
I am a big fan of Diverse Solutions and got in on the tail end of the beta test on IDXpress. I am also looking again at the Tomato because they have a listing modul in the works. I look forward to your insights because I am an amateur trail and error type, and I would love to have help on having fewer failures before I reach the promise land.
This type of post with helpful links is sooooo valuable. I could reach, learn, glean from this type of information all day long. Thanks for posting and giving all of us something to think about, to check out more fully. You caused a spark like the one in ET.
The only IDX sites I've seen with great SEO in my market are Redfin, Estately and Movoto. They must be doing something right. Until I figure that out (longshot) I blog blog and blog and have a link to my own IDX available to people who stick around to read my stuff.
I firmly believe you are correct about the benefits of a saturated market being diluted. If everyone has the same system in the same market, all that system is generating would pages with duplicate content. And someone, whoever lucky #1 is, is going to be the first result, the rest will be after you click the "There are more results, but we didnt show them to you" button. The Myrtle Beach real estate market I am in is no different. It's best if you have that technology first on a good authoritative website. Otherwise, it might not benefit you that much.
Jeff ~ funny you should have this question as I was just wondering the same thing. I too have a DS IDX account and I know for a fact, their beta plugin is rockin' in Google for the lucky few who are beta testing (yes, Jay, that would be you in the Phoenix area). But, I was just thinking that if several agents in a given area have the same plug in...what's that going to do? I'll be curious to hear what you find out, if Google's talking.
Fantabulous insight Sam...
@Debe- You run an indexable IDX within your own web/blogsite, on your own unique domain. The content posted here on AR is aggregated under one top-level domain, activerain.com...anything created underneath, like this post: http://activerain.com/blogsview/1455210/indexable-idx-questions falls within AR's domain, hence the aggregate benefit AR members receive. At least thats the 20k foot explanation :) Sounds like your firm is doing something similar, just on a much smaller level, aggregating content from all agents under one domain for the collective benefit of all.
@Jay Adding an indexable IDX to your site is like adding a a twin super-charger to a 500HP engine.
There was once a time when 'blogging your listings' was considered 'bad etiquette'... What happened to that school of thought? Indexable IDX's are simply, automatically creating individual blog posts for every listing. Hmmmm.
More thoughts later...
OMG! Another blog that is Greek to me! I am really feeling old! :-(
kp
I think we can only speculate when it comes to duplicate content and how google will handle multiple indexable idx content , I wonder if there are any markets right now that have multiple idx content and what the results have been so far. I hope google answers their phone for you soon if not I have Matt Cutts direct line if needed, haha I wish. Thanks for the great post.
"Indexable IDX's are simply, automatically creating individual blog posts for every listing."
Jeff, looking forward to you sharing more thoughts on that later... :-))
Interesting. Thanks for posting!
Jeff, what I am seeing more and more is that each individual agent/broker needs to create their own solution and not rely on cookie cutter IDX solutions from third party vendors. Without a thorough knowledge of the technology and design from ground up you will be punished by Google. Hang up the phone because they are interested in unique and relevant.
Their capability to index is always in the state of flux and they will figure out IDX overuse sooner than you think.
Look at Zillow, Trulia, and others, they would be hammered if they followed this approach. It's time that we start seeing ourselves as businesses and not just Realtors. Just look at Zillows use of ul
tags which is unconventional but easy to index.
Your branding is original so should your web site, blogs and iphone apps. Your are severely limiting yourself if you rely on un-massaged data from IDX and in some cases overuse of frameworks.
James Salas
Key Biscayne
Our real estate team was interested in something like this, and actually had a specific conversation with AgentPress (by some of the folks over at @Cyberhomes), they seemed to think that implementing this sort of application would be a red flag for search engines like Google. Because we just aren't sure about what to expect, we have held off on implementing this sort of thing.
If it would improve SEO and not deter it (or throw us under the bus!), it would be a gold mine of information for visitors to our blog!!
I do not know enough about SEO and IDX and how they relate to even wager a guess. All I can say is that I do use Diverse Solutions for the IDX on my office's blog, and obviously the response to your question would directly impact our website!
I'm especially interested in your comment "Do the mysterious Duplicate Content theories come into play, and as a result does Google and the other Search portals penalize sites for such?" Definitely a topic I'll be following. Thanks for posting!
Karen:
Wordpress has a specific program for real estate agents and I have heard it's pretty good.
I am in the process of signing up with DS. Can't wait until the wordpress plugin is available. Supposedly they say within 30 days.
Saturation issue is interesting - I will bookmark this to se what those much wiser and more experienced than I have to say.
Great post Jeff.
Full disclosure: I am with Diverse Solutions, makers of dsIDXpress
Some of you have expressed your concern about duplicate content. We do not see as a problem with dsIDXpress. Property data from the MLS is everywhere and it is all the same. Despite that fact websites like realtor.com, redfin, estately, ziprealty, sawbuck, zillow, trulia, etc are all very successful in the search engines. All types of information these days are syndicated in one way or another such as blog posts, articles, statistics, etc. That's not to say duplicate content is not something to worry about in some cases. On site duplicate content is a big no no. If you have say 500+ listings on your website and each of those listings has 5 different locations (unique URLs) where the property information is displayed then you would want to worry about duplicate content. Obviously we do not do this. Each listings has a unique URL regardless how you get to it. Also proper use of the canonical tag is important to but I wont get into that here.
When we first were playing around with the idea of dsIDXpress I thought that same thing. Once the MLS area gets saturated it won’t be effective. The more we thought about them the more we saw a unique oppurtunity for the agents. If an agent is looking to get every listing in the MLS indexed for their site it’s just not going to happen. Most agents don’t have enough PageRank, Google Juice, inbound links, reputation, etc for the search engines to spider all the listings in every city and then rank them high in the SERPs. Instead what agents should be doing is start small and pick just a few key cities or communities and focus on those. Those that are more focused with how they build their site architecture and combine listings with relevant content are going to be the ones that yield the best results.
Thanks for the info Justin. You are absolutely correct. Many sites do not have a high enough reputation to have all their MLS listings indexed. And like you said, the agents should focus on the ones they DO want to get indexed.
i am seeing more and more listings coming up in my Google Alerts, from the big guys.
My site is framed so it doesn't do it. But, am thinking about adding the Diverse Solutions to my blog for this very reason. IMO the agent(s) who get there first have the best chance, just like blogging. Those who started first get the best seo out of it.
Just an opinion as we all know Google changes things all the time to keep us moving forward.
Hey how about that IPad....I want one.
Wow - Great info and a great set of questions Jeff. I am just now setting up my WP site and IDX is what I am looking for. I will follow this topic with interest to see what you find out.
A lot of this is over my head, but I want to learn more. I have always wondered ifmy IDX search site is out there on Google. I don't think it is.
Sarah in Nashville
I'm going to follow this topic too. I think it's a little above my head right now!
Test test test.. and measure results.. Good post.. I was always wondering, looking fwd to Jay's test results
I would love to hear what Google has to say. You have very valid questions that I don't think we can answer withouth knowing more from the big guns over there. Please keep us informed, Oh Ye of SEO Solutions! :-) (PS are you STILL on hold? I hope you are doing something fun while listening to elevator music) ;-)
I'm curious about this. I've heard arguments on both sides and am still unclear on who is correct.
Thanks for the info. That is an amazing product.
I checked out the IDXpress site. That seems like a great deal. $29.95/month and no contract? I think I'm going to try it for 6 months on a brand new WordPress site. I'm reluctant to mess with my current site because it's working really well already. So for about $300 over six months, I can have a site with a separate page for each home in the MLS. What a deal! The upside is huge and the downside is minimal. Am I missing something?
Great questions Jeff. As you know RealtySoft.com is also an IDX vendor. At this point we only offer a framed IDX solution but we are currently working on an indexable IDX solution. We were also concerned with the same questions and decided to approach this differently:
FACT - The truth is that Google will penalize you for duplicate content. If you and 50 other websites in your region index 5987 listings and the only thing different on those pages is your contact info, obviously that is going to raise a red flag.
FACT - One important factor in SEO is targeting. You want to target keywords in your niche area. Why should your site index listings in Manhattan when you sell real estate in Bronx?
SOLUTION - The way we solved this issue is by indexing only the portion of the listings that matters to the agent. Let's say I have an agent that focuses on luxury condos in Manhattan, we will only make those listings available for indexing!
I hope this helps! Someone from your company called me a while back and asked similar questions. Are you up to something Jeff? :)
Great post. I'm looking forward to learning a lot more about this topic as I've thought about it quite a bit. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
What would you suggest running on a self hosted WP blog?
If it was duplicate content, then MoveTo, RedFin, Trulia, etc would not be at the top of the SERP's. As Justin said, with each listing having a unique URL and add to that unique page content, then it should not be a duplicate content issue. We have been using a spyderable IDX for years and our only competiton is the "big boys". It has nothing to do with page rank because the results are due to long tail searches, ie; MLS numbers, addresses, neighborhoods, etc. Definitely a SEM advantage.
I've got to come back and read these comments. I have an indexable IDX on my main site (my other sites get the i-framed version). Over the years, my site's PR has gone down so Google only indexes a few of my IDX pages. I am planning on working on my site this year to get more authority. I've been told that Google will only index so many pages on my site because of my lack of authority.
However, I have not lost any search engine positions (still keeping top serps for keywords I've optimized), so the authority problem is just not getting more of my pages indexed and cached.
As far as dupe content, my IDX pages would look quite different from big sites such as Redfin and other portals. So I don't think I'd have a dupe content issue for that. However, if someone else had a similar indexable IDX search, then I don't know who gets the credit.
I pay more money for this custom IDX and am not sure if it was really worth it. On the other hand, I am able to easily create IDX snippets that show up seamlessly in my content pages and that's what I love. If anyone wants to see what I'm talking about, click on my profile link below and go to my website. Click the Orland Park page and you'll see what I mean. (I am still working on other pages - I said it's easy but I guess that wasn't the best word to use - it takes time).
Of course it's not dupe content with MoveTom, RedFin, Tulia -- they all have DIFFERENT MLS systems. The content is the same, but it is organized, and displayed differently, which moves it around the duplicate content barrier.
I believe we are discussing ALL using the same MLS system, such as IDXPress. The system is going to display the same listing the same way on ALL the different websites. Ie. MLS Number in a header tag, address in a header tag, description, bulletted items, same page title, same exact url except for the domain name. The page itself is a complete duplicate, unless Diverse Solutions reprograms their software EVERY time they install it. Not likely at all.
That being said, I still agree that the local markets need to only let the listings they want to crawl be crawled. That will help out the best.
Great discussion here Jeff. I'm parking to learn what others think...
I love this conversation. I just had the same one with another realtor about our brokerage who hired someone to compete with the redfins and trulias. The key as it always is, will be content. Soon the widgets and the properties won't be enough, it'll be what's the richest experience. Will local brokerages jump on board and start by adding localized contents about parks and neighborhoods from agents tied in with video and tweets, and so forth.
At the end of the day it'll be the 80/20 rule.
IDX will proliferate to the 20% of agents and brokers that get it. Meanwhile the rest of the agents will continue to thrive using their networking and cold calling skills, join us, or go find another job. Look at blogging. Most agents still aren't blogging. Last time I checked, blogging has brought me more business than any other endeavor (over the course of a year), yet out of the 200 people in my office, there might be one that has a blog.
Thanks again for all the great comments...
@Justin Thanks for stopping by, you're at the epicenter of this and I trust you guys have extensively thought this through.
'Instead what agents should be doing is start small and pick just a few key cities or communities and focus on those.'
This seems to be the prevailing best practice strategy as things currently stand in the Indexable IDX arena.
@Peyman- That was just some research for a client, thanks for sharing your insight BTW...I/we have no plans to get into the IDX space, its just a hot button topic right now as the space evolves. My questions were born of genuine curiosity directed at professionals in the space such as yourself.
@Marney Sprint dropped my call while I was on hold ;)
@Missy Although im generally what you would consider an Apple/Mac Fanboy, Im having a tough time seeing the iPad as much more than a big iPod...
I am with Diverse Solutions and am very happy. Glad to hear they are on top of it. But I am still wowed by the issue.
"IDX solutions are typically framed in to web/blogsites and offer little to no SEO value. "
Not true. Frames done right can provide as much "SEO value" as anything else. It simply depends on how it is done and what your goal is.
"Does the SEO value evaporate, since everyone will effectively have the same content?"
"SEO value" isnt really the issue. the issue is whether or not you can increase the number of pages you have indexed in a search engine and how well those pages will rank.
"Do the mysterious Duplicate Content theories come into play, and as a result does Google and the other Search portals penalize sites for such?"
Duplicate content is a real issue. It isnt a theory and it isnt at all mysterious. none of the search engines want multiple versions of the same content. With Google, a url is considered a distinct page, so different urls with the same content are viewed as duplicate content. Google will make an attempt to determine which site is the source and discount the others. The mistake some are making here with references to Trulia and Zillow not having dupe content issues is because they are the only ones with the content laid out in their specific format. That isnt the case with a mass produced and distributed IDX solution where the content is formatted exactly the same (including meta data) with the exception of contact info.
"Which site running the same Indexable IDX ranks better?"
Sites dont rank. Pages rank. If the question is "Will the home page of a site with an indexable IDX rank better for a given term?, then the answer is no.
"Is this where a higher PageRank becomes more than a bragging right and effectuates results for higher ranking on SERP’s?"
Yes and no. PageRank is mostly just evidence of the pagerank of pages that link to a given page (PR is page specific, not site specific). What is more important is the authority of the page linking in. A PR6 link from a pron site wont help you as much as a PR4 link from Harvard. This is also where deep links from external pages come into play as Google looks at internal links differently than external links. As Justin said, most sites do not have the link equity ability to juice that many pages.
"Is there a way to differentiate the content via novel implementation methods, result formats, or other such tweakery?"
The wordpress plugins simply pull in the same content with the only difference probably just the contact info so there is little you can do to change anything.
"Is one Indexable IDX different from another (not from a functionality standpoint, rather strictly from an SEO perspective)?"
Again it depends on what you want, but that really shouldnt be the number one focus. The focus should be on functionality and usability that leads to a higher conversion rate. They can be different based on how they structure the meta title meta description and page title, plus how how they present the info on the page.
Many have added so many additional third party plugins that are linking out that they are counter productive from an SEO/page rank perspective. Adding a Zillow or trulia widget to them, which they all seem to like, just helps those two entities out rank you, so gain you may possibly acquire is shared with two who compete with you directly in the serps.
One thing to keep in mind here is that Indexable IDX pages are transitory by definition. The minute they go under contract, expire, cancel, etc., they are gone. Do you really want to waste link equity on pages that are here today and gone tomorrow? Justin was right about investing your link equity on more valuable pages that will funnel your visitor to the search function.
Choose your IDX based on usablity for your visitors and what it offers you from a lead management perspective. Worrying about the number of pages indexed doesnt matter if they dont rank well and dont convert.
As for the new content theory that Sam talked about, I can disprove that a million ways to Sunday.
Jeff - timely topic for us, we're having this discussion with our programmer right now. We have a framed-in IDX but thought we'd get better SEO with an on-site solution. I'll follow the discussion and will be interested to hear what you find out.
I would think that even if Google indexed the IDX link they would eventually go away from that format. Google is actively trying to find relevant information for the people who are utilizing their search engine and I am not so sure that they would find that information relevant after a period.
Thanks for your insight Bob...
Typically framed solutions offer little SEO value. To your point they can be augmented.
'the issue is whether or not you can increase the number of pages you have indexed in a search engine and how well those pages will rank'
Is that not the precursor of SEO value...Increasing the # of indexed pages that rank well? Indexable IDX's will increase the # of indexed pages...getting them to rank is the key, thus increasing SEO...so how would you propose getting these pages to rank better?
'With Google, a url is considered a distinct page, so different urls with the same content are viewed as duplicate content. Google will make an attempt to determine which site is the source and discount the others.'
So the question is, which site will be considered THE source? First movers?
'Sites dont rank. Pages rank.'
Sites are an aggregate of pages. So the question is: Two or ten sites contain pages of identical content, which page ranks better and why for an identical Search if Google cannot tell who THE source is?
I've yet to hear anyone give a lucid, verifiable explanation of how PageRank may effect sites (and its pages) running duplicate content. My question is basically: will a site/page with a PR3 have better SERP placement than a PR2 site/page with identical content?
The last two questions seem to hold the key answers...Indexable IDX's that can produce a degree of novelty in Googles eyes, be it through different meta-data structures or some other mechanism for the pages they generate, would seem to offer a desirable degree of differentiation...rewarding the sites (and its underlying pages) that ranked well prior to such an implementation.
'The focus should be on functionality and usability that leads to a higher conversion rate.'
Absolutely. Indexable IDX's value proposition are to generate more indexable relevant pages for potentially greater organic traffic, subsequently driving such to a functional and useable UI that converts well...
OMG!! I did not understand a word to begin with, but began to understand quite a bit by the end of reading all of that! Thanks!!!
I think one thing that would help is understanding you definition of SEO value..
SEO is the process, not the result.
"Typically framed solutions offer little SEO value."
This is a generality and a huge myth. I used frames to get a site to rank #1 for "San Diego Real Estate" from the time Google launched to the day I sold it in 2007 (one of the top 100 domain sales in the world that year).
Indexable IDX's will increase the # of indexed pages...getting them to rank is the key, thus increasing SEO...so how would you propose getting these pages to rank better?
I wouldnt. One cant really predict or control which listings out of 15k or so will get indexed. The effort to do so isnt worth it, particularly when they may disappear tomorrow.
So the question is, which site will be considered THE source? First movers?
Again not something you have control over with an IDX that many in the same market may have.
Sites are an aggregate of pages. So the question is: Two or ten sites contain pages of identical content, which page ranks better and why for an identical Search if Google cannot tell who THE source is?
Google still only ranks pages, not sites. Google will make an educated guess about the source. The liklely winner will be the page that has the most authortative juice behind it. With IDX though, it is truly a crap shoot.
I've yet to hear anyone give a lucid, verifiable explanation of how PageRank may effect sites (and its pages) running duplicate content.
Thats because the issue isnt pagerank.
My question is basically: will a site/page with a PR3 have better SERP placement than a PR2 site/page with identical content?
Only pages have page rank, but regardless of that fact, there is no answer to that question because what you see displayed as page rank isnt a factor in ranking or authority.
The last two questions seem to hold the key answers...Indexable IDX's that can produce a degree of novelty in Googles eyes, be it through different meta-data structures or some other mechanism for the pages they generate, would seem to offer a desirable degree of differentiation...rewarding the sites (and its underlying pages) that ranked well prior to such an implementation.
The number of indexed pages from a given domain doesnt mean that the site or other pages within the site receive any benefit or reward. The internal links from these low value pages have little impact.
Indexable IDX's value proposition are to generate more indexable relevant pages for potentially greater organic traffic, subsequently driving such to a functional and useable UI that converts well...
It is a low value proposition. These are transient pages that are not around long enough to matter. As Justin stated, the better focus is on pages with substantially higher traffic numbers wher the visitors are funneled into a search.
SEO value = pages/content that drive organic traffic from the SE's.
'I used frames to get a site to rank #1 for "San Diego Real Estate" from the time Google launched to the day I sold it in 2007 (one of the top 100 domain sales in the world that year).'
Thats you Bob, not 95% of other real estate agents who use framed solutions.
I dont have control over anything Google does, Im wondering in a world with Indexable IDX's potentially enabling identical content on multiple pages, which page would Google likely consider the original source?
'Thats because the issue isnt pagerank.'
So PageRank has nothing to do with potential SERP placement when looking at multiple pages with identical content? (I get that pages rank and not sites as a whole)
'It is a low value proposition.'
It is the value proposition (long tail organic traffic funneled to pages with higher traffic numbers, funneled into a functional UI that converts well), which leads me to believe you dont see much benefit in Indexable IDX's over say, whatever solution you choose to implement...which is fine. I appreciate you taking the time to offer your opinion...
I'm no SEO expert, that's for sure.
I understand indexed IDX pages are "transient". ie: they won't be there long.
I also know for a fact that four people visited my blog in the last 20 minutes by Googling an address. One came via Googling an MLS number.
They were all presented with #1 results in their searches with a page from my indexed IDX (pages the DS plugin generated). Of those five visitors, three went into the full IDX search, and two are still there 20 minutes later.
January will be my second highest monthly unique visitor count ever. A significant portion of those visitors are landing on pages that are indexed IDX listings.
We've also had increased contacts in the way of search registrations, contact forms submitted, emails received and phone calls.
Seems to be working pretty well... I could give a crap about page rank, page latency, whatever. If people register for searches, email, and call, then that's good enough for me.
Jeff, what matters is what is what is possible.
I dont have control over anything Google does, Im wondering in a world with Indexable IDX's potentially enabling identical content on multiple pages, which page would Google likely consider the original source?
There is no absolute answer for that.
So PageRank has nothing to do with potential SERP placement when looking at multiple pages with identical content? (I get that pages rank and not sites as a whole)
No. Not what you are referring to as pagerank.
'It is a low value proposition.'
It is the value proposition (long tail organic traffic funneled to pages with higher traffic numbers, funneled into a functional UI that converts well), which leads me to believe you dont see much benefit in Indexable IDX's over say, whatever solution you choose to implement...which is fine. I appreciate you taking the time to offer your opinion...
I didnt say it has no value, but its not something where most know how to create a specific SEO strategy that can be predicted (like frames), and it wont make non-IDX pages rank better. What you will get is what Jay is talking about - more mud against the wall that may stick. Agents focusing on it for SEO purposes is missing the point, and vendors selling it as an SEO benefit, is, at the very least, misleading.
Jay - Some people are very persistant. Those 2 people are still trying to figure out how to use your IDX ;-)
BTW Jay -
Almost any one you ask would tell you there traffic has gone up last month due to more traffic on the net, not because 100's of people are searching for specificMLS numbers. Sounds like you are strecthing the facts a bit. But I guess that is your M.O. You seem to be a little full of yourself. But that ios most of what goes on here at AR (bid mushy love fest).
Sorry if this doesn't make sense I was on my way to bed when I decided to check in - wow you guys have been busy here.
SEO value of framed sites - minimal at best. Some can't be indexes, others are not semantically correct and the rare few that do get a framed page here or there indexed are not getting their website indexed. They are getting their IDX company indexed which provides little value in most cases. It's not content on your site and doesn't contribute to the big picture for you site which is for it to be content rich. Framed IDX's I think are best used for a great user search experience.
Duplicate content / Who will get indexed / Who will be higher in the SERPs - It can't be a duplicate if Google doesn't see it. Like I said before most sites will not get 1000s of pages crawled. IMO I think those that do will have a harder time competing in smaller areas with some sites that focus their Google Juice on specific areas or communities getting indexed. National->State->City->Community->Tract->Property Don't try and do to much to soon. Don't spread your Google Juice to thin. I suspect those that inserting a property or lists of properties in an area (that automatically keep updating) in with related unique content are getting a leg up and often ranking higher in the SERPs for those result pages over someone who doesn't. We are seeing Google index the results pages first then they move on a few days or weeks later and start indexing the property details. A good rule of thumb is design your site architecture and content for your clients. If they find it useful most likely Google will to. There isn't silver bullet for this that will work for everyone. These are mearly ingredients for you to make something Google wants to eat.
@greg - What Jay is reporting is not much different than other reports that we are getting from other customers. Traffic from a whole new set of keywords leading to pages you never had before on your site qualifies as an increase in traffic.
Greg wrote: "Almost any one you ask would tell you there traffic has gone up last month due to more traffic on the net, not because 100's of people are searching for specificMLS numbers. Sounds like you are strecthing the facts a bit. But I guess that is your M.O. You seem to be a little full of yourself. But that ios most of what goes on here at AR (bid mushy love fest)"
Stretching the facts? What would be the point in that Greg? Facts can be verified, and before you accuse someone you don't know of lying, you might want to consider that.
Screensnip of Google Analytics. Note the increase in visits at end of December - to date. This coincides with installing the dsIDXPress plugin.
This isn't a seasonal thing, it's a shift in traffic pattern. I don't know that there is "more traffic on the net". But I do know that having the second highest traffic count in almost five years, when there is no other one-off news story or similar cause (and where deeper analysis shows how many are landing on these IDX pages) is not an insignificant fact.
As for the number coming to the blog and landing initially on indexed IDX pages, here's a screen snip in real time. Red arrows point to visitors who arrived on IDX pages.
Greg, you are welcome to judge me and gather an opinion that I'm full of myself. I'd argue that most who know me would disagree with you, but it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
But please don't question my integrity by saying I'm stretching the facts.
My understanding is that FrameSets are rarely indexed, and if they are, they are indexed as coming from the host site, not the displaying site... that said, we have custom IDX solutions on our sites, and we do find that UNIQUE CONTENT is helpful to our search rankings... this created an issue when our MLS moved to the newish RETS Connector technology... as all the tools are in Beta, and as our sites run on PHP using Linux servers, and most tools are only available for Windows servers, we had to delve into the idea of a thrid party solution (the sole beneficiaries of the RETS standard) and we found that on the one site we dud this with, our results in SERPS declined with that site significantly... when we implemented the custom solution (we had to do this middle step since our MLS in classic fashion only gave us a month to do the changes $&@#$!) our SERPS rankings went back up...
Something to do with hosting the data on our own server, I believe... but I cant swear to it...
I agree with a number of the "experts" here, and especially what Bob and Damon said.
Remember - search engines are trying to find the most RELEVANT results for a given keyword search, so that those people keep using that search engine.
You can and many people will be able to game the system from time to time, but then Google will go and change their algorithm, and poof, you are gone from the results.
Think like a human, use good practices, and you'll probably end up with more CLOSINGS, which is what it's all about, am I right fellow agents?
p.s. Jeff, thanks so much for this post and the ensuing conversation - it was WAY overdue!
I came here because I was literally sitting here with Jennifer considering DS IDX for our blog. I began reading the comments and saw folks were questioning Jay's honesty... Just for the record, Jay is one of the most straight up, transparent and honorable guys on RE.net. The comments calling into question his integrity are exactly why I have been doing my best to avoid RE.net.
Jay, Jeff and others thanks for providing very useful information in my research.
Gee I want Jay Thompson's blog traffic... I came from a tweet about his stats being questioned... or his intergrity. I was ignoring this post although I read it when it was first published. I am in a market where we are supposed to link to our brokers IDX.... so as interesting as this is...
'Just for the record, Jay is one of the most straight up, transparent and honorable guys on RE.net.'
Word.
Apparently all the new people on the net last month missed my blog, dammit.
My own thoughts (not worth the two cents) are that the first movers may see a value from the indexed IDX. After a while, it might not matter as much, but they will still be better to have than framed IDX... I want to have my IDX indexed...
Jeff, Interesting dialog going on - actually came in from a not so complimentary comment out there about us here in the Rain. BUT, I stand with Maureen, we too are obliged to use our companies IDX. That being said, I do see where an address that was search for pulls in an inquiry from the 3rd party sites where our listings are posted. IF I had a choice would I want to have my IDX indexed - you bet. But as Jay states, it's not the placement we look for it's the number of clients raising their hand to use our services.
P.S. - I second you Jeff, Jay is a very straight forward and honest guy!
Justin suspects right about one thing. Bob is correct about some and wrong about another. Jay says Yay! but cares not why.
Imagine.
What would happen in a market where an agent does discover how to use MLS listings in a way that gets "results" and "details" pages - All indexed, All ranked in the #1 or #2 spot on Google, and ALL automatically structured to correctly boost the rank of each other and non-MLS related pages and hyper-local blog posts on the same and other sites? Say they only get 100,000 or 50,000 or 10,000 MLS related pages indexed.
Wow.
Do you think that agent (or company) would share those strategies on ActiveRain or even sell them knowing that to do so would kill her advantage as quickly as other savvy folks could copy the strategies?
Or do you suppose that agent would implement them in her market and other markets as quickly as possible to suck up and convert as much traffic as possible?
The SEO strategies to do this are not complicated.
The technology and programming pieces are not complicated either.
The key is thinking a little creatively - outside the box of most folks' speculations.
Great questions Jeff. This SEO/SEM? stuff gives me a headache!
Getting indexed is not as complicated as it sounds. If you have relevant creative content that you update often you will get ranked, The problem is that many don't want to put in the time and instead delegate it away.
This has been sitting in my queue for a couple days now so I may be way late too join in. Apologize.
Theresa B's point on Google choosing one page from amongst many duplicates is accurate. The filter is proven by a high profile mortgage blog that feeds its' exact content to many other mortgage blogs... and only it gets indexed.
Contrary to legend, that duplicate filter can be passed... with unique edits. Also proven.
So, feed the IDX forming' posts to a drafts file. Edit posts for actual unique value add ...and avoid being ignored by the engines. And people.
Chris
Kinetic Knowledge
yer not to late Chris...for us fanatics anyway.
You had to give away that tidbit didn't you. It is one way to do it. However, don't get caught.
Most MLSs prevent the addition of other content to the listings page, though they usually let links, menus, and sidebar content slide. They also don't like you do use an "unapproved" version which this might be if it's different then the design shown to them by the idx vendor or yourself.
The way you might be able to do this is if the content you add - I hope you have a ghostwriter for 100,000 listings : ) - would be to sort of Box/Shade-in your own content, or the MLS listing content so it would look very distinct.
Anyway, the companies that are releasing Wordpress plugins gotta be a little careful, lest a clever agent with some programming skills really takes apart the data feed to use it for his own nefarious purposes, or they get whacked for embedding listing content in posts in violation of the MLSs rules.
Very interesting post and comments as well. I've been searching for a new IDX provider but now think it would be best to have a custom made solutions so i don't have to frame someone else's. Can anyone direct me to someone who can design an IDX for me? I'm in Los Angeles, if that makes a difference. Thanks!
Hi Sam.
I couldn't resist, but thank you for the good info. I'll pass it along. I guess my bigger question, point, position or whatever bias it is I have is ... 'if you turn on that faucet, how long before you destroy the value you add for your target market?' When are you no longer differentiated to the average trusting consumer? If they are researching providers, are you going to be perceived as knowledge- able or even appealing with rapid fire data- based posts? How long before all subscribers just turn you off? If fed to twitter and facebook and wherever else via feed connection, how long before no one's listening? I understand everyone wants to capture the searchers and this may be an immediate [Google is good at weeding pollution from it's ranking organic search results] competitive fix, but strategically / long term it may have negative effects. To me, your subscribers are a primary long term goal and the best source for a pipeline of leads.
With our folks, and we have a couple that do it for sure, we're certainly going to support this. Whatever they want, but we're also going to lend caution AND discuss the value of long term sustainable brands.
Chris Frerecks
Kinetic Knowledge
What are some of the best companies that offer searchable/indexable idx's? Any previously done research or opinions would be most appreciated. Thanks everyone!
Gilbert
gilbertperalta@kw.com
425-750-1056
I would also be interested in the best indexable Idx that offers rss feeds. diverse solutions is not in my area.
Hello, Jeff, from a former Charlotte resident.
I've recently had the dubious pleasure of setting up a dsIDXpress-enabled blog for Phoenix real estate agent Joe Janus. Lemme tell you: going head to head with Monster Blogger (and friend) Jay Thompson is a scary proposition.
Joe and I been pleased that our rather low expectations have been exceeded. Joe isn't getting the huge numbers that Jay gets, and we never really expected that he would. However, I'm seeing him coming out ahead of Jay Thompson in Google search results surprisingly often. Jay agrees with my conjecture that Joe's blog may do well for things like searches in historic districts because his well-ranked regular web site has a wealth of text content on historic neighborhoods. I've posted an article with more details and a screen capture of Joe's Google Analytics page.
The screen capture of Joe's blog stats is enlightening because it will show that almost all the searchers used addresses or MLS numbers to search and eventually reach his blog; these are very different from the "generic" keyphrases with which people find his web site. So, after only three weeks Joe is currently getting around 20 visitors day that his regular web site is missing. These extra visitors are like cream on top of the 150-200 visitors per day that his regular web site gets.
Also, a word of warning: the number of pages that Google Webmaster Tools says it has indexed for Joe's blog -- 5 -- apparently bears no relationship to the number of listings pages that it has indexed. That should be obvious just from looking at Joe's Google Analytics page. I was very frustrated at first because GWT kept telling me that 5 pages had been indexed. I thought there was something wrong with the plug-in. But eventually the numbers of daily visitors just started creeping up while the number of indexed pages indicated in GWT stayed the same.
Is ListingPress.com still around? None of the links on their site work.
Jeff, an update on Joe Janus's dsIDXpress-enabled blog. It is now getting around 100 visitors per day, while his regular web site is getting around 150.
I've recently discovered Myrsol.com, an SC web developer and site host that offers true integrated listings along with a features list that's to die for. I just finished my first site hosted and Myrsol and have totally fallen in love with the system and the guys there as well. Myrsol does a true integrated feed by programming an MLS board's feed directly into the site. My client's site's traffic has jumped already in the first week since the site went live, and he is thrilled to have already gotten some two dozen leads. Great system! I highly recommend it -- and they have already programmed the Charlotte feed.
I think people might be a little misinformed about what duplicate content actually is...and that's because there is no concrete definition of it.
No two real estate websites are going to display all their listing data in the same way (or at least they shouldn't be), and you shouldn't have MLS content as the only way to establish authority in the search engines.
Duplicate content happens naturally on the web, especially with things such as real estate listings, and search engines understand this. Fortunately, like in most areas, real estate agents are often very reluctant to change. So if no one else in your area has crawlable area listings...get on it!
I use a company that puts RETS feeds in the Amazon Cloud and manages the data for us, so we can build any kind of IDX-Home Search site we want with any features we want using Amazon libraries and many easy programming languages.
(We use php on the yii framework. A WP plugin with all kinds of SEO stuff (not for sale) is our latest project built off our experience with ListingPress before the company shut down.)
Having full access to MLS data can let you create thousands of SEO pages with any SEO structure you want. If you're frustrated that your IDX provider has a crappy URL structure and only repeats the keyphrase/address once:
- Build your own site so the address is in the url at the beginning and repeated in H1, etc...tags several times throughout the page. There aren't any MLS rules against that : ) though there are against some of the things you could try to do.
- Build a macro that turns all your brokerages listings into videos with music or text to speech and then automatically submits the videos to 35 video sharing sites WITH data like addresses, keyphrases like Chicago Homes, placed into the video title, description, etc...
www.RETS2Cloud.com is the company.
RETS2Cloud just manages data which - to do really well so that the data is served up quickly and is stored efficiently - can be tricky.
Here's what you can shoot for...
Most real estate websites turn less than 1% of visitors into leads.
The best Home Search site/Lead Generation companies and internet savvy brokerages like Redfin (probably) capture leads at between 10-15% on average. That's a good ROI if you have a killer CRM and follow-up system.
Our newest search site will have a 20% or more lead capture rate or we'll change them until they do and since we have direct access to the data, we can tweak to our hearts content!
If you talk to an IDX company the only question you need answered is -- what is their lead capture rate from PPC traffic and organic traffic? Well, you might also ask them about their Return rate. If they aren't fibbing, they can show you the analytics.
Good luck! Pursuing the creation of the best Home Search site is my Great White Whale.
- Ahab
Jay, google analytics 2009 - January 2010 - am I missing something??? I am also in a state where we are supposed to link to a brokers site, I am in real estate hell.
Miriam - I think what you're missing is the date this post (and my comments) were made. Jeff posted this article on Jan 26 *2010*. I commented a couple of days later. So at the time I posted a link to my stats, they were current...
I've got agent friends in Louisiana, so I understand your pain. Hard to believe in this day and age there are still rules in place that are so.... 1975.